December 11, 2003 by

Carol Bundy

172 comments

Categories: Criminals

Carol Bundy, the accomplice of the “Sunset Strip Slayer,” died of heart failure on Dec. 9 at the Central California Women’s Facility where she was serving a 52-year sentence. She was 61.

A former vocational nurse, Bundy was dating Douglas Daniel Clark in 1980 when he began murdering runaways and prostitutes in Hollywood. Bundy would sometimes accompany her serial killer boyfriend as he cruised Sunset Strip, and even helped abduct and kill his victims.

Although they were suspected in the deaths of up to 50 people, Bundy plead guilty in 1983 to two counts of first degree murder. She admitted to killing a young girl and her former lover, Jack Murray.

Clark, a necrophiliac who kept the head of at least one victim in his refrigerator, was also convicted of killing six women in 1983. He is currently sitting on death row in San Quentin State Prison.

172 Responses to Carol Bundy

  1. Robert Giles

    Carol Bundy was very similar tob Rose West,Myra Hindley ,Charlene Gallego ,Catherine Birnie and Karla Homolka=Evil,sadistic,depraved

  2. MJ

    Bundy is an evil person and I believe it was her who did the killings and Clark was merely a bystander who she told lies to the police about.

    • bopey

      agreed, dont know if you’ve read christopher berry dee’s book, but i found it astounding to discover the level of incompetency of the police in dealing with this case. She is definitely the ultimate culprit, and although doug clark was clearly a fool for having involved himself at all, i certainly believe in his innocence concerning the six murders he was accused of. Dont know how the prosecution can live with themselves.

      • siobhannorton

        I agree he could be innocent, he certainly didn’t have a fair trial. The word innocent may be wrong he at least knew about somethings and didn’t say, but his lawyer was drunk and asleep for most of his trial which made clark say things like he wanted to represent himself, and the judge responded to this by locking him away hannibel lecter style. when clark saw what was going on he said “so if I had a video with bundy and Murray committing the murders you wouldn’t let me show it as evidence”and the judges response was”no I wouldn’t”so I am still unsure, I think people find it easier to blame these types of murders on men so when bundy killed Murray they went after clark. just my opinion.

        • Shannon

          There is no way on earth or any of the many planets of the universe that he is anything close to innocent.
          Face it the man is, at the very least, a RAPIST. You weren’t there and did not know him at the time, so let me go over this again really slowly.
          The sky is blue
          The ocean is wet
          He is guilty as hell

    • Lori Abbs

      I did time with Carol and at the end years of her life she suffered greatly- as was wonderfully appropriate and not nearly as much as should have been…but GOD decides these things and fortunately he did put the screws to her. The diabetes she had took her eyesight and very few ever treated with more than cruelty so she went around in a black world not able to identify her tormentors. Then the diabetes started causing sores and I know they were painful. They never healed and Carol took that pain to a sick bed which then became her deathbed. Appropriate. Oh hell yes.

  3. mike

    from what i have read and researched, Douglas Daniel clark is an innocent man who was fitted up by the police force, despite the pathological lying of their one, and only “star” witness… Carol Bundy.
    and yet due to the bias, perverse course of justice and the trial it is he who sits on death row. i cannot believe the scale of the injustices committed towards a man whos only crimes were to con ugly woman into free room and board, and the shannon incidents. (which came about through Bundy)
    the police and justice system should hang its collective heads in shame.

  4. Someone who is not a fan of murders

    I find it very odd that people are claiming Douglas Clarks’s innocent when the guns were found at his work, as for him only being a con man, I think the 11 year old girl who was molested would disagree!

    • bopey

      the guns were found at his work, but all other evidence concerning the actual murders point towards carol bundy. He was guilty of the shannon girls molestation, but as was bundy who had been grooming the 11 year old for months and engaged the girl in other sexual exploits not including clark. There is no connection between the paedophilic act against shannon and the murders so to say she’d disagree is an utterly ignorant point to make.

  5. Shannon

    Actually Since I am the 11 year old from that case, now 36, I will tell you that YES, I do think he is guilty. He has sent me letters and cards full of painful memories, lies and thinly veiled threats as long after the trial as ten years and has had a seriously negative impact on my life. It is very hard to have to think ‘if I put my name on this will he find me? Will he be able to find my family and go after them? Will his fans come after us?’
    Having heard some of mr. clark’s less savory plans straight from his own lips. ‘Let’s go find a prostitute, a really trashy one and when she tries to roll me I’ll shoot her in the stomach and watch her bleed to death real slow.’ I know the monster he is and he is in the only place that he should ever be this side of the grave.
    And as to Only molesting me do you think that was ok? How would you feel if someone tore any remaining innocence from your child? Your mother? your sister? Molestation is never right, is never ok and will always leave invisable scars that hurt and haunt those who bear them and their families. Please don’t lie to yourself and think him innocent. I saw the guns, I saw the blood and I was too young to understand at the time nor did I have all the pieces of the puzzle at the time to do so but in hindsight it is always so much more clear. Keep your mouth shut if you don’t know what you are talking about.

  6. ROBIN

    THIS IS THE SISTER OF TWO OF DOUGS VICTIMS. I SECOND SHANNONS TRIBUTE— KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE MONSTER IS GUILTY AND A REAL PUKE.

  7. kirsty

    I am a criminology student and have done extensive research in to this case. I believe Clark is innocent, and it is unfair for people to condemn him when he did not even receive a fair trial.

  8. Shannon

    Oh Please Kirsty, Tell me how his trial was unfair? I can tell you how it was unfair to me. There was no need to press the molestation charges. I was spared that little slice of hell, but I did get a lovely dose of him telling me how big a liar I was. Him practicly begging me to recant and lie for him even while he gave me such memorable presents like a full description of how he had planned on murdering me in the eve of my 12th birthday and a promise that he would visit me because we were meant to be together. He had a reporter named Mac Namura mail it to me. I had to call the prison, and several vicitm assistance programs to beg help because I had a horrid fear that he would visit me and I would die as horribly as his other victims or that he would inflict that upon some other member of my family. I am not ‘just someone’ I am one of his victims. I am one of the few that lived and I am very lucky for that
    Doug is a thief of the worst sort. He stole the last vestage of my innocence and he stole the lives of women who never deserved anything of the sort. Given the chance he would do so again. I am still his victim I still find Dumbasses like you on the web who have no real clue about what happened who love to defend him as some sort of good man. He wasn’t a good man then and I cannot imagine that anything has changes just because the monster is behind bars. Every few years some dipshit like you goes on a crusade and claims he is innocent . I get painted as some sort of mini matahari, just out there to lie about him due to may failed ambitions to become a prostite or some other drivel on their lame ass, self rightous, misinformed webpage and I then have to dance with the FBI, The prison system, The web server and various victim’s assistance programs to get the slanderous pap pulled down. There is a reason I loathe him so much, even Carol, as wrong as she was, was not as bad as he was. Doug is what I consider a disease and if not left in his nice quarantined cage he will get out and spread like the virulent cancer he is. You tell me where that trial was unfair? Was it where children had to get up on the stand infront of judgemental strangers and cry while they told what he did? Was is fair that Doug thought it was fun to kill anyone he considered less than his own vainglorious self? Is it fair that there are mothers who still weep for ther dead daughters knowing what that prick did to them? You are right in one sense that the trial was not fair. He is still alive so long after his victims. So here is my email kitsune@hotmail.com. You drop me a line and tell me how you think this thing was not given a chance at a fair trial. I was there, you were not. Jaysus he even gave me things that had belonged to the other victims. Does it take a rocket scientist to put it together?

    • KIMBERLY NIX MURRAY

      Hi Shannon, you are 100% correct and I hope he dies a painful death. I am praying for you, you are strong. You are strong, you are a survivor and no longer his victim. I pray that you may find peace in your life. kimberlymurray@hotmail.com

  9. Sarah

    Shannon,
    I agree with you, Doug Clark is guilty as sin. I have no doubt about it in my mind. Reading about what he did makes me so incredibly sick. My prayers are with you.

  10. Macavelliz

    I just got done readingthe book Sunset Strip Murders and I would have to say that Doug was an ass during trial and thought he could control all women. There is no way this guy is innocent! They both killed those girls out of fun. Anyone who keeps a head around for fun and sexual pleasures is a real sick and morbid individual(s). So sorry to hear what happened to you Shannon. I read the story and I really feel for you. No one should have to go through what you went through!!! I say KILL CLARK NOW!!!!!!

  11. j

    I am so sorry Shannon.
    We’ve got to make sure this guy doesn’t brainwash people any further! I know he’s guilty in ways I won’t even share how. I strongly urge everyone in California to band together to make sure he never gets out. IM your age too shannon and Im trying to do everything I can to keep this guy behind bars. I beg of people to seriously look at the case. The guy posted cartoon photos of Sylvester and Tweetie just a few years ago with himself as Sylvester. That’s how he described how he got women. Please realize that if he goes free he’ll do it again.

  12. Marie St-Claire

    its funny how people get involve in criminology and say they have done their researches and get the animal thats behind bars free…then the animal kills again….and the criminology all washes their hands…its called the OOOPS act..like in OOOPS we fuked up again.
    if u defend these rat monsters and u get them out of jail….and if they kill again…the ones that got the killers out of jail should be charged with the crime the mental cased killer did.
    i thought jail was for dangerous people who are a threat to society…but obviously JAIL is for people that cant pay their fines…and the molesters,rapists,killers etc …all have a better legal team defending them than the victims.
    the law is corrupt….here in canada we have another killer mental case named Karla Homolka…she made a deal with the court…and recieved 12 years of jail….now her time in jail is done…but she doesnt want to come out cuz her lawyer say she has been recieving death threats…again.. protecting the killers.
    if a person is found guilty of murder with all the evidence etc……just get rid of them with the lethal injection and finish it off.
    give the victims families a little closure …have respect for once in ur life.
    what are lawyers good for anyways?
    They go home kiss their wife and kids then go to work to deffend guilty molesters and killers.
    what are lawyers good for?
    sorry for my grammar skills I left them when I left school to get a job and pay taxes so my gov could protect molesters and killers.

  13. J.

    I think the site that sells douglas clark’s taped interview should be banned. The site is protected by our first amendment. Nonetheless, the unconstitutional unfairness to the victims and the families outways the free speech rights allowed to murderers. You can say what you want, but when people are trying to make a buck off this stuff it is just wrong! I think the victims and the families deserve all the monies earned off the cruelty of these crimes. I also think that whoever is trying to say that Douglas Clark is innoscent is probably related to him so don’t listen to any of it.

    • bopey

      “whoever is trying to say that Douglas Clark is innocent is probably related to him so don’t listen to any of it.” i disagree, but by saying he’s innocent doesn’t mean anyone isn’t condemning the evil of such actions, they are, i do and it makes me sick to think of the atrocities he committed against the shannon girl, but i think the blame of the murders should be placed upon jack murray and carol bundy. She after all was clearly a liar and someone who shoots her lover in the head a couple of times, stabs him 12 times in the back and proceeds to decapitate him just after having sex surely screams this woman is capable of anything, and fucking evil things. In researching the case, clark has an alibi and evidence supporting his innocenc the whole time, he ended up having to defend himself in court becausehis attorney, provided to him by the state was completely useless!
      Coleman case.

  14. J.

    oh shannon. the newcriminologist sells a dvd and books of douglas clark. http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk/shop/purchase.asp?boo=1070I think it’s a travesty. I can’t relate to your pain but my sisters were murdered by this guy. sometimes I think my pain is worse than anyone’s in the world. I feel for you. I wish peopkle would wake up and see the light. I’ve tried to get some legal answers because I don’t think it’s fair that these people are using my sisters deaths for profit. discusting! I ernt through so much trauma after finding it, like it happened all over again, only no one was there to comfort me, I mean it happened 25 years ago. Worse, nobody cares, they just say, oh just don’t read it. MY SISTERS PICTURES ARE BEING SOLD LIKE MEAT AND IM SUPPOSED TO JUST SIT BACK AND LET IT GO>??? Where is lady justice?

  15. Shannon

    I think your pain is worse than mine and always will be. I am scarred and in some ways very damaged by what was done around and to me, but it is done and over. Though I feel a certain vigilance toward children and a very definable wariness about who I let close enough to me to actually know me, that is not nessisarily a bad thing these days. He was not the only dangerous thing that is out there and like the pestilence he is he is kept in a nearly safe little petri dish to study and find a cure for. I somewhat understand the need for this, though to be perfectly honest I do believe that the sun will shine a bit brighter and the air will be sweeter once he is safely dead.
    My wounds are closed and seldom does some money grubbing slime bag decide to rend it open because, if nothing else I lived and can repudiate the claims they can and do make when the urge strikes them. Since I was not killed I am lucky to be less interesting for the tiny minded money grubbers. I feel worse for the families of the girls and women who were killed because there is a common misconception that one cannot slander nor wound those already dead. But the dead leave behind pieces of themselves to comfort those they leave behind in memories and the love they gave and recieved while they lived. Each time some idiot puts up a website that has some stupid mud slinging or thoughtless rumour or bit of misinformation on it, it rips open all of those terrible wounds of loss again and again , as if attempting to cover them over with a slimier and more marketable version of sensationalism designed with no care for those left behind , for those who cherish the memories of these people. Then the people who loved the victims are left to painfully scrape over the newly opened wounds to try to excise the filth that has so ignominiously been tossed at the name of their loved ones, raking over wounds that, because of the constant mud slinging may always be left a bit raw and bleeding around the edges In anycase, therewill always be a hole left where once the victim lived in their lives.
    If you would like to email me feel free to, the email I gave here I keep specificly for contact on this matter. I knew the thing that killed your poor sisters and then tried to make them into less than they were by claiming that they were prostitutes. I know they weren’t. This case is often somewhat of a curious scar that I must poke at to find out all of the hows and whys of such a horror.

  16. j.

    Oh Shannon I am so glad you survived! Thank God for YOU! The only good that came out of my sisters daths is that the police were able to put this guy behind bars, Gina was the first one found. Her blood evidence was also key. And Cindy’s phone number.
    How in the world could anyone believe this guy is innocent. Where the heck is Susan Serandon when the survivors rights get brushed aside…don’t we have rights too. I take it to heart when people lie about Gina because she was only 15, 15 and one month old. She had a boyfriend, got A’s in school and wanted to be a model. She was no prostitute. Cindy was a Christian who dreamed of heaven. Yes they partied, smoked pot, but they were teenagers. Douglas Clark can brag all he wants about killing prostitutes. I know he is wrong. The looks he gave me at the trial, I KNOW he had seen Gina because I look just like her. Now that I’ve learned about a survivor! wow Shannon it’s unbelievable to me. thank god for you! I get freaked when people stare at me and ever since investigating the case, I think that Douglas Clark is somehow behind it. I know it is unrealistic. No pills can cure my ills. I hope the execute him soon….

  17. guy nelson

    what a tragedy that cindy and the other victims
    in the so called “sunset strip slayings” had to
    die in such a way and at such a young age.what
    a tragedy it is too that so many runaways and or
    prostitutes meet similar fates every year.perhaps
    had cindy and her fellow victims in this case
    had been co-eds from well to do backgrounds then
    this case would have received the kind of police
    and media attention it deserved.

  18. pod

    polic attention yes, but the media attention it “received” was only to exploit their death and make the victims out to be prostitutes. My sister and stepsister were not prostitutes. That was a lie that Douglas Clark drummed up to make himself look better. He also lied about a host of other facts so his words should never have been repeated as credible. As for “well to do” I don’t know where you get off talking about my family as if you know us. Who are you?

  19. Shannon

    The attention recieved was not as much as it could have been. I doubt it would have made any diffrence to the victims to have their memories distorted by the media’s need for a perfect byline. It makes a great deal of diffrence for those left behind though.
    Yes, many of the vicims were poor and/or “low profile” people. Creatures like Douglas are predetors. Preditors do not get to be predetors without choosing victims that they feel are less than they are, disposable in the face of their own personal agendas. No vicim is disposable to those who love them. know them, care about them. Those that are left behind to mourn them. But a predetor does not care if the thing that they destroy likes to read, or that their favorite thing in the world is puppies. The victim is a thing to be destroyed. It is part of the objectification that twists like thorns in their minds. It is also, unfortunatly, a successful hunting method for them. The ones they choose to hunt and hurt are the ones they feel will be less noticed, or more esily explained away when they go missing.
    But people have to remember the “splash factor” about the media and even, sadly sometimes, the police. Someone, like myself, for example, would cause very little “splash and splatter” on the face of the media or even to the police. I have no great wealth. I live a small life (not to be misconstrued as a useless or meaningless life, just an average one.) There would be no mourning masses to scream and give lovely teary eyed sound bites for the press to distort so it eats away at the memory of who I was. I would not make a large splash unless It was as a small part of a greater whole. My friends and family are not the kind to share their pain with the world via the media’s saccrine condolances. They know that words can be twisted and turned into a mockery of their original meanings and would avoid it with silence. I would make no large splash to make the media interested in me or my death…
    However, if I were a person who was in the spotlight, Someone of great wealth or political power, someone who leaves those behind who are not too fragile and stunned with grief to scream at the police and media whe they do not act, or get things wrong about the victims, then my “splash” be large and would dictate more action on the part of the media. It would also give the media more reason and opportunity to pick what my life was apart to make it fit their storyline.
    A good example is Rodney King. Everyone knows who he is. Does anyone remember LaTasha Harlins? She was killed the same summer, also for very racist reasoning. Her killer went free, I remember watching the news for days as they played and replayed the video of her being shot in the head and her tiny twelve year old body falling like her strings had been cut. I remember the woman who shot her went free.
    She didn’t have as loud a voice as Mr. King. She did not make as large a splash. She is less remembered for it, but her family and those who loved her have fewer people talking about her in negative ways.
    People always want to believe that if something horrible happens to someone that they in some small way deserved it.
    I have a voice. Cindy and Gina’s family have theirs. I am not loud, but I have knowlege of what went on. Cindy and Gina were not marginal people. Their killer , even now tries very hard to convince people that they were. It is sick and it is more than sad. But I have my voice and I can say no to the lies. I can counter them with truth. Their family can and do do the same. They were not prostitutes, they were girls who were killed by a very sick man. They were not sensational soundbites because they were normal girls. There was less to exploit so the media played with what they could and then moved on.

  20. Shannon

    Do I loathe him? No. Detest him? Not really. Do I fear him? Yes, even now I fear what he will do and what he can convince others to do. Does the idea of him walking about in the world free scare me? Oh yes! Very definately. Do I think about him enough to have him affect my daily life? Not if I can help it.
    We are talking about a man who had no qualms about seducing a child. A man who had no qualms or reservations about taking an eleven year old child to his bed and drugging her so he could rape her. A man who, in casual conversation would laugh about killing some “low class whore”. A man who thought of most women as whores and objects to be used. The same man who scared me spitless ten years after his incarceration, by sending me a very detailed letter about how I would have been killed on my twelfth birthday if he had not been caught, Not that he would have done it , oh no, not him, he was of course innocent of any wrong doing. Imagine thinking things were all over for you and getting a lovely birthday card that says someone who used and hurt you, someone who scared and scarred you who stole your last vestage of innocence was going to “come and get you, so we can be together always” Then a week later get that shocking ten page letter describing your demise in vivid detail and couched in terms and phrases that no one would recognise the threat of unless they knew him.
    To this day I cannot have happy birthdays,even after years of thereapy. I get depressed and think of Cindy, Gina and all of the other victims he made and how close I came to being one of them, perhaps even one of those lonely few who’s families and friends have no closure because they never were identified. I weep for them and get very frightened that some poor misguided son of a bitch like you will think him innocent and get him out so he can hunt and hurt me or those I love.
    For the month of my birthday and sometimes longer I have to fight like hell not to go to ground like some hunted, haunted thing scared for it’s life because I have little faith that someone like you, someone who just knows that he is innocent won’t come for me. That someone who feels they are “going to set things straight”, is going to hurt or kill me to avenge this virus of a creature.
    Then there are the lovely people on the web who are so kind and sweet to put up websites that call me everything from a perjurous liar to a wannabe whore. Do you have any idea how that feels? I hurts all over again. It’s like being beaten for telling the truth. Then I have to fight to have such slanderous things taken down. No one cares because it was so long ago. But I care, My family cares. The families of the other vicims care as well.
    There are also the people like you. The ones who question me as if I am too vapid to remember that time in my life. Those who have the nerve to ask me why I know he did these things. I will give you the same truth I give all of them.
    He is guilty because he did it. I am convinced because he convinced me. His words to me and in my presence make me sure he comitted these and possibly more murders. I know what I know. You were not there and there is no way to really tell you what it was like. I was often spoken over as if I were a piece of furnature or a pet too stupid to understand what was being said. In a way I was too stupid then to understand. I didn’t have all of the pieces of the puzzle I have now. I remember a tiny gold music box that played greensleeves. I remember the day it was given to me along with some clothes no 11 year old had any buisness wearing. I remember being told that that music box belonged to one of the victims. A thousand little things that were terribly separate to the mind of an 11 year old came together into one large scary fierce and ugly picture once the arrest was made. Like many things it is a matter of perspective. Like being shown an image of a single pixel, then being shown that it is an image of a rose. If you are too close you never see it.
    I knew him then. I know he did these horrid things. I have no doubt that if he were set free he would do more unspeakable things.

  21. guy nelson

    I’m curious as to why you were so angered by my question Shannon.
    Why all the hostility and defensiveness ?
    Maybe if you take a good look inside yourself then
    you’ll find out the answer.
    Somehow i doubt it though.

  22. kevin

    guy, your question asked yet again “are you sure” you just told her in the form of a question that you don’t believe her. She’s said several times that she thinks he did it

  23. kevin

    anger response happens when some one is frightened I know that shannon is frightened of this guy, your response lends the belief that you are on his side, there fore you get the same type of response

  24. Shannon

    Angry? Actually I was not angry at all. I am slightly anonye that you cannot read what was written here before you asked me the same lame question that several others have asked me so often over the last two decades.
    I am not Defensive about it either, I am tired of the same question being asked and having to answer all over again.
    I am annoyed by silly shits like you. People who think they know better than those who lived it. I was there. I have lived in the shadow of this thing most of my life, but of course you read a book or two and you know what happened better than I do because no author would slant things to get their point across, no media would put their own flavor of spin on it to make their theories seem to be the best ones. Oh no, that would never happen.
    Ask me what colour the sky is. I can tell you because I live under that sky. Ask me if the ocean is wet. I can tell you because I have swum in it. Ask me if Douglas is as guilty as original sin. I can tell you that as well, because I was there and I saw what I saw. heard what I heard.
    Now please ask me a more original question at the very least or go away.

  25. Shannon

    I was actually responding more to Guy’s agressively negative attitute towards me. That does not make him seem at all open to what I have to say even though he did ask the question. He seems to be one of those who is convinced that Douglas is not guilty of anything bad at all. He seems very like those who, after the trial and before it, would ask me ” are you sure Doug touched you in ways that were not right?” Hello? My body, My pain…. Yes, I am sure. I would hae some, not many, but enough to frustrate me badly, then ask ” are you sure though?” You are doing the same thing Guy. The question was asked and answered before you got here, had you read you would know that. but you don’t care for the truth and that is very very frustrating. It doesn’t make me nearly as mad as it does scare me.
    People like you, the ones who overlook what is to try to reshape reality to suit your ideas. I will not allow this truth to be reshaped in that way. Those are the people who can reshape an evil act into seeming reasonable in their own minds. Things like murder and the rape of a child. Do you even believe he did what he did to me?
    I would rather it never happened. But it did and I survived it. I am a strong woman because of some of it. I can speak my mind because I had to speak of horrible things in front of strangers, a judge and jury, a lawyer who was willing to rip me up to get me to lie, a lawyer who seemed to be there just to ask painful embarrassing questions of me. Doug stood there mocking me, tru\ying his best to deny the truth of what I said as I sat there and tried not to cry while these strangers watched. I was called a liar in front of all these people and they believed that I told the truth. So, you see, Your opinion, and the opinions of those like you really don’t matter at all Guy.
    What matters, in the end, is that those twelve people knew the truth and pronounced it to the world. It is simply frustrating that people like you will not believe it. It is very scary that in this world there are people who will harrass and even kill for creatures like Doug. Very frightening are the people like you who are told and have access to the truth yet you decide to pick at the victims insterad because you are a bully. You make me sad. If it were not for the simple fact that I know so many amazing people, I would fear for the world.

  26. guy nelson

    Shannon,you asked me to please ask you a more original question so here goes ( by the way Shannon,i appreciate your saying please.Good manners go a long way wouldn’t you say ? )
    Anyway,my question to you is what role,if any,do you think Jack and Carol had in the murders ?

  27. Shannon

    I would say your welcome, but that is like saying thank you for getting slapped.
    I only met Jack once and I did not care for him. He was as bad about wanting to touch me as Doug was. That makes him an oxygen thief in my book and I have thought very little of him since then. He was Carols victim, she was afraid that Doug would be angry at her for seeing him again. Her words, not mine.
    Carol was a very very damaged woman. She killed to make Doug happy because that was the only way she could find any self worth. She was Dougs beard in many ways. She gave him the appearance of normalcy that he lacked.
    Once things came out I did not like her very much, but I did not loathe her as I do Doug. She tried to help herself, she tried to help me, and she did help her sons by removing them from any place Doug would be. She tried to help herself by seeking a psychiatrist. She tried to help me by turning Doug in two weeks before he had planned on killing me.
    Carol was a victim of herself and of Doug, he was her crack and she was addicted. It killed her eventually and left a very hollow shallow thing in it’s wake. I don’t think she would have killed on her own. I think had she been left to her own devices she would have hooked up with one abusive asshole after another until one killed her.
    Now answer me two questions, if you would be so kind. First of all, Why do you care about acrime that happened so many years ago and had no bearing on your life what so ever? and second, Why is it your questions come off as rude and condesending as they do? I wonder if that is intentional.

  28. Caitlin

    Gee guy, you don’t seem to be nearly as good at answering her questions as she is at fielding yours. Do you think he molested her? Has she changed your view at all? Do you really think he is innocent?

  29. Guy Nelson

    You know something Shannon that question you asked me about why i’m getting into all of this was spot on.What am i doing wasting my time in a geeky internet chat room exchanging messages with a bunch of faceless people whom i’m never going to know or meet ? I think i’ll go on a vacation instead.

  30. kevin

    you seem to be a cowardly little shite, guy, talk about faceless, you come across chinless. you started it with your snippy attitude. Luckily shannon seems to be ok about all this not fine or happy but ok yet you seem to be happy to twist a knife in someone annonymously and then run off crying sour grapes when called on your assholiness

  31. Tasha

    I congratulate Shannon for getting on this blog and letting her feelings about the whole situation known. One never gets to hear from the victims of these situations. As a law student, who read the case file and other materials on this case, I feel like Doug got a full and fair trial. He actually got better than that.

  32. pod

    Its so funny that guy freaked me out. Little does he know we are not geeks but the actual victims. I hope he stays away from this site! what an asshole!

  33. JRS

    Hi everyone. I’m new here. I had read “The Sunset Murders” years ago and was appalled by all involved in this case, including Jack Murray. I recently read somewhere that Doug Clark’s Death Certificate had been put up for auction on eBay. Is this true? I hadn’t heard that he had died. Anyone out there have information on this? Also, I am interested in asking Shannon if she still lives in Los Angeles and is she married or has any children. Please reply. Thanks, JRS

  34. Polar

    OK, well I’m the nephew of Douglas Clark and J. you can kiss my ass. Back on July 25th you said “I also think that whoever is trying to say that Douglas Clark is innoscent is probably related to him so don’t listen to any of it.” I just think you’re pissed that “MY SISTERS PICTURES ARE BEING SOLD” and you’re not getting any of the money…
    I dont really care if he gets out or not. What I will say is that he is my unkle and I love him because he is my blood and what happens, happens.
    My whole family have tried to put this behind us and get on with our lives.
    Also a note to all of you who base your decision of his innocence or guilt on only reading Louise Farr’s book “The Sunset Murders” need to shut your mouth and find some other sources… When I was like 8 or 9 years old I answered our front door and them remember get pushed aside by my dad after she started yelling at me about my unkle, my dad asked her to leave and started closing the door but she stopped it with her foot and hand so my dad pushed her back and slamed our front door. She is a lying bitch!!!
    JRS no my unkle is not dead so the death cert. on ebay is a fake. Believe me my family would be one of the first to know.
    Now to the “actual victims”(pod) I feel bad that this happend. By the way pod how are you a “actual victim?” How do you become a victim when you even said it was your sisters, and if by relation that makes you a victim, what would that make me?
    Victim-(noun) : person killed, hurt, or abused
    by hurt I dont think it means emotionally…
    I’m not saying my unkle is innocent or guilty. I do belive in An eye for an eye and that God will punish those that do harm.
    Also please watch what you say. How hard is it do you think to sit and listen to everyone talk about a member of your family. Once again I quote pod on Dec 5th “I don’t know where you get off talking about my family as if you know us.”

  35. jeff

    my name is jeff i am the youngest son of carol, i was in the apt when it all started and can tell you that they were both guilty as hell. me and my brother were moved by my father 1 week before it ended.. shannon, i was the 5 year old blonde boy.. im sorry for what they did.. grew up having to deal with it.. carol lost me as a child when she said if i could do it again i would..so all people that knew or knows them are the victims,, and lets not for the people killed by them, or the children molested..

  36. pod

    think about it, all the people who lost them, the teachers, the surfers, the boyfriend, the co-workers. the friends, the church, the family, the future, the accused families, the distant relatives, the potentia, the future, all because of a bullet, a gun, and some people doing this for FUN? The protectiion of the dead goes on in my head because not for gain of a few measly dollars, but to protect them from bad people who like to watch bad movies and cruelty to women who might find their dead bodies attractive that’s what made me want to stop the murderabelia by being proactive
    I think i was a victim because the death of my sister., her loss in such a violent manner caused me severe physical pain, not sleeping for days hurt my brain not sleeping causes permanent brain damage as a child. The victims advocates consider us victims because of the truama involved in this kind of loss and the need for some kind of repair if that’s possible. Its survival to move on and grow as I have tried and am glad you have too. One thing leads to another and emotional pain leads to physical i don’t know if its direct but thats what the groups call it. I think everyone affected is a victim of course you would be too and I hope you’re doing well,. I think about the family as well. I don’t want any of the blood sucking murderabelia profits I want it stopped! The only amount recoverable is so small and it would have to be devided by all the families under California State Laws that means prbably like 5$ I don’t think thats enough to be greeedy over. Do you really believe a family member would get greedy over that much gain? Don’t you think there are other motives: like sticking up for your blood as you do for your Uncle? I wish you the best.

  37. Polar

    POD,
    First off Im sorry If I was rude when I posted that last message. This site was brought to my attention earlier in the day by a co-worker. I had not read in detail all the previous posts I only skimmed through the whole page. Since then I have taken the time to read everything, and I apologize.
    You were more affected by this whole thing more than I will ever be. The year that doug was arrested I was turning 1 year old. My parents did not even tell me me the truth of what happened untill I was like 13 or 14 years old.
    I was sticking up for my blood, as you put it. All iI could do after I posted that was push back from my computer and think about was who I was sticking up for and shake my head.
    I also understand why your upset about the pictures being sold. I would feel the same way if I was in your position.
    A very close friend of mine recently wrote me a letter, “Just little by little, bit by bit the pieces will come together. In gods time not ours. Be patient. Keep looking upward and on ward. No going back, only forward. Also remember that somethings are not our job. It may be to big for us to handle so give it over to God. He’ll take care of it. It’s so simple but so hard to just surrender and trust. Do you believe? Is seeing Believing? Believe it and you will see.” -SB
    To everyone affected by this whole thing, my thoughts and prayers are with you, and I wish you the best…
    Polar

  38. Shannon

    JRS,
    I moved out of LA years a ago for reasons having nothing to do with any of this.
    As to personal information about my marital staus and children, I would rather not say. Call it paranoia if you like, but I do think that is a bit personal and I do worry about the people like Guy, who seem to think I was just a small mata hari out to seduce and destroy an innocent man. People like that can and do do horrid things in the name of so called justice.
    If what you are really asking me is if I am damaged by the whole affair or if I can have a “normal” relationship after all is said and done, the answer is yes to all of it. I am damaged by it all, but I can and do have a pretty normal life. I had a reasonably normal set of teen years and a few romantic entanglements. I admit all of this has and occasionally does cause bumps in my road, but that is all they really are anymore, bumps, not insurmountable obstacles. The people around me understand if I wake up crying or terribly frightened and upset,Or if certain things make me angrier than the average peson would be.
    I went through a few years of therapy to get to a place where I could feel safe and allow myself to be myself again. But, I am and always have been well loved by friends and family, which allows me to be a stronger person for the things life has thrown at me.
    Polar,
    You did not do the things your uncle did, you were completely unaware of them and so hold no blame for them. No one can second guess the past or do a damned thing to change what has already happened anymore than they can choose their families.
    What Doug and Carol did was wrong and reprehensable, and has nothing to do with you. I am sorry you were harrassed about things I would never have wished that on anyone.
    He did what he did, to me and to others. I was lucky, I lived and came out the other side almost whole. You could not have stopped it. You carry no blame.
    I do wish that Doug had been sent to therapy, but again we cannot second guess the past.

  39. Christopher Berry-Dee

    Hi. I am Christopher Berry-Dee, author of ‘Talking with Serial Killers’, published John Blake 2002. My book, pages 264 thru 309 contains a chapter on Mr Clark. I was also the resereacher/interviewer for the 12-part TV series ‘The Serial Killers’. I interviewed Clark at San Quentin in 1995, along with Det. LeRoy Orozco and other officers concerned with Clark and Bundy. My attention has been brought to this forum, and an interesting forum it is, with well-balanced arguments from both sides – all making for good debate. I would be very interested to hear from anyone, including ‘Shannon’, because this may shed new light on the Clark case, and put things in another perspective. My personal email is christopherdee639@hotmail.co.uk, and my web site is http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk. I will answer all letters (in complete confidence), and I would most certain like to extend this debate to my web site which receives over 1 million visitors a month.
    With best wishes to all of you…Chris

  40. Shannon

    Is there some reason my name is in quotes? You think me a false victim? That I would lie and say I am who I am not? How stupid would I have to be to do that here? Where the vicims and the people involved are likely to post?
    If you wish to communicate with me, my email is clearly posted here, but don’t expect me to play nice or make my opinions suit your slant.
    I am sick to death of people painting “poor doug” as the gentle philanering man who would never even dream about hurting someone.I was there. I heard the things he said he wanted to do. I am even more sick of the schmucks that paint me with such a broad brush of shame, as if I had done something wrong. I was not a mini hooker waiting to bloom. I was not a seductress who was out to ruin a good man’s life. I was a child. I was a victim in a bad situation. I am not anymore and I stand up for myself as I could not then. I use my voice now, as I didn’t know how to then, when someting is wrong until it is acknowedged and fixed. I had to learn that one voice can carry and make changes. I had to learn that I was not at fault for what was done to me. I found my voice and if you ask me to use it, it will be my words, my thoughts you hear. You will most often not like what I have to say.Too bad.
    My email is kitsune_at_hotmail_dot_com
    If you want to use it do… but be prepared because from what I have read on your site I do not like your ideas and I will say so.

  41. Shannon

    Guy,
    Is there some reason you seem to like to be such a vicious ignorant twit? you know nothing of me and never will. You would not know the truth if it bit you… and some day I think it will.

  42. guy

    Vicious,ignorant twit eh ? Shannon,what you don’t seem to get is that i’m only TRYING to help
    you by pointing out the obvious and that is that
    you simply have to get over all of this and to get on with life ! How long ago did all of this
    take place anyway ? Twenty,twenty five years ago.
    The fact that all of this still appears to be eating away at you after all of this time would
    certainly suggest to me that yes,you have a victim complex.Not only that but you also seem to
    be a bit on the paranoid side also judging by one of your earlier messages.The one where you seem to think i see you as being some sort of a
    ‘Mata Hari’ type and am out to get you.Maybe this
    is what other people say about you and it may even be how you see yourself (no offense)but since,as you said i don’t know you how could i say such a thing.Not that i think theres anything at all wrong with being a Mata Hari type
    but thats something else.Anyway Shannon,why don’t
    you atleast pause a moment or so to think about
    what i’ve said.Dump the negative stuff of your life in the garbage and get on with life.

  43. Shannon

    Weren’t you going on a nice long vacation rather than wasting your time “in a geeky internet chat room exchanging messages with a bunch of faceless people whom i’m never going to know or meet” ?
    I personaly wish you would. Yes this happened about 25 years ago, and 15 years ago it happened again when I got those “love notes”. It happened again ten, four and three years ago when nasty minded people not unlike your own self put up websites full of slander and lies about me. Defending my nameand the truths I know does not make me a professional victim, it keeps me from being an eternal victim to what is piled on my head by people like you.
    You are so good at asking questions, but I notice you never answer any of mine… or anyone else’s for that matter.
    For instance; Why do you care about a case that was worlds away from you when it happened and had nothing to do with you ever? Why do you care if I do or don’t have a life? I have a wonderful life and I do not let the stench of this mess taint it in any but the smallest fashion.

  44. Anjelah

    ~To Shannon~
    I live far away from the USA and had never heard about this case until recently. I read this blog tonight, and felt compelled to post a comment, and tell you how much I admire your obvious strength, courage, and determination. It is plain to see, apart from to morons like Guy, that you are certainly no longer a victim.
    Good Luck to You.

  45. guy

    Why do i care about the case and whether or not you have a life or not ? To answer the last part of your question theres something about you that i like Shannon.No,really and inspite of all the stuff you’ve said about me thats how i feel,oh and i’m sure you don’t feel the same towards me but thats okay and i understand.Really.One other thing Shannon and that is that the advice i gave you to just let all of this go doesn’t seem to be something you want to heed.May i ask why ?
    Now onto the first part of your question and why do i care about a case that happened so long ago ?
    I wouldn’t say that “care” is really the word i’d use.I’d say its more a case of my being interested in the bizarre nature of the case and of all those involved with it.And of all those involved i find Carol Bundy to be especially interesting.As well as sounding to me to be a highly unusual woman i also find myself being fascinated by her bizarre and deviant behaviour.
    Well Shannon,i hope i’ve answered your two questions to me to your satisfaction ?
    Now and before i close though i have another question for you.How do you know that i was “worlds away” when this whole thing was happening ?

  46. J.B.B.

    What were the two step-sisters like? What were their hopes and goals? What are some of the good memories you have of them? I too read the book by Farr and I found it disturbing that she really didn’t tell the victims story in all of this. They were human beings after all, and were not just victims but vibrant young women who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time unfortunately. They too have a story and I’d like to hear about it.

  47. Gustavo

    Wow, it’s just amazing, I just read the case details today and at the end they said Carol died so I went to find out if she died on prison and came to this post. As I am from Panama, where we’ve never had a serial killer, I find that reading from their crimes, you learn that all of them were manipulative. They were in so many ways like the ones who manipulate people so good that they don’t know they are that bad, the ones that manipulate judges and jurors and are send free to kill again, the ones who manipulate others into killing, the ones who manipulate media so everybody writes there are innocent after proven guilty by law, etc.
    I feel sorry for all the victims like Shannon and J and also for their families and friends but reading this blog and finding people like Guy Nelson, reminds me that serial killers will always have their fans either by manipulation or stupidity, whichever makes them feel good with themselves.
    Note: sorry for my English as it’s my fifth language.
    “Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you to their own ground and beat you with the experience.”

  48. guy

    Gustavo,since you mentioned that you have studied
    the case for all of a full day and are now such an
    expert maybe you’d care to tell us what your source or sources of information was ? While your at it perhaps you could also tell me why it is you think i’m a fan of serial killers ?

  49. Shannon

    Guy,
    The way you write says that you are not a native nor long term californian. I often make a concious effort not to give away where I live and where I have lived. Why should I give clues to people who are not my friends?
    As to your liking of me? Puhleese! you like me in the same way little boys like ants. You raise up your magnifying glass to the light of your scorn just to see if I will squirm, then it annoys you that I remain unmoved.
    As to your “advice”, what exactly was that advice? Was it give up on this and move on? Done, years before I encountered you or this blog. Was it just shut up about it already? I refuse to do that. It took me years to gain my own voice and years more to feel cherished enough, brave enough, to use it. To feel that the stains on my past did not make me unworthy of being loved.
    My silnce helps only those who are guilty of harm, or intend harm. My voice is both a defence and a confirmation of my survival. By speaking out about what I know maybe I can help someone else come out of the shadows that haunt them. My voice is a gift and I will use it. Here and in the other places I have been and will go. I survived this, I will not hide from it as if I was somehow at fault or I should carry some shame.

  50. silent_whispers

    Shannon,
    There is something I would very much like to say to you. I’ve tried putting it on here, but for some reason it won’t let me post it, says something about questionable content, and I’ve reviewed and reviewed, but can’t find anything that would be inappropriate in anyway. I’m unsure if your e-mail is the same, I doubt it is, so I give you mine. If you have the time or interest, could you e-mail me at littlegothvet@yahoo.com? I hope everything goes well for you and yours hun. Take care,
    Shirley

  51. silent_whispers

    Gustavo,
    There was a serial Killer in Panama, he wasn’t caught though, most likely he’s left the country, if I’m not mistaken they’ve been looking for him since 2000, you’ll see his face in every police station here his name is Carlos Rafael Meneses Lambis. Anywho, just thought you might like to know that. Take care hun,
    Shirley

  52. m

    DOES ANYONE KNOW WHEN DOUGLAS CLARK IS SCHEDULED TO DIE. I AM A COUSIN OF ONE OF THE VICTIMS. FOUND THE BLOG SAME DAY I CAME ACROSS OLD PHOTOS OF CHILDHOOD MEMORIES

  53. pod

    no one knows, they’re waiting on a habias corpus. no one is scheduled to die for that matter! Too many liberals in California!! I hope they do soon as I am tired of him making money off of his stories and memorabilia. Im a sister of the victims so i come here from time to time and check on any latest. I keep in touch with the attorney generals office.

  54. Guy

    To M and Pod.I have a question for you both and that is did you ever know Douglas Clark,Carol Bundy or Jack Murray on a personal level ? Another question i have is has anybody on the blog heard of or know anything about somebody by the name of Sonny Hill ? Well,those are my questions for today so i think i’ll sign off for now.Bye everyone.

  55. JUSTIN

    In all honesty i believe that no one should shed any tears over Doug Clark. Society is the richer without him. That said a fair degree of evidence points against him being the main protagonist in these murders. I have to say that while agreeing with many of the coments “shannon” has made i find it a little sickening that he/she sticks to the rather obvious pretence that they were one of clark’s victims. this is aside from the mystifying inability of anyone else here to question the validity of this individual when they begin their entry with phrases like”i’m that girl called shannon that doug clark abused” obviously shannon was not this victim’s real name (as it is standard procedure not to give in print the realm names of such victims)i think a gullibility check is in order here-

  56. Jim

    My name is Jim. When I was 19 years old (1978), I personally knew Doug Clark. For slightly more than a year, Doug, myself and 8 other men worked together on “crew 3” at a electrical generating station (Steam Plant) owned by the City of Los Angeles. We were both City employees. We worked a “rotating shift”: 10 days on, 4 days off, 10 swing shifts on, 4 days off, 10 Graveyards on, 4 days off. It was a roughwork schedule to say the least. Some liked it, I hated it – just couldn’t get regular sleep.
    Due to our unusual schedule the Crew would become very close. On swing shift and Graveyard, the 10 of us were the only people in that giant plant which covered about 2 or 3 square miles of land. The plant still exists today. Doug & I spent nearly countless hours alone either in the water treatment area of the plant where Doug was a Plant Equipment Operator, “the Pit” where I was a Steam Plant Assistant, or in a City pickup truck inspecting the grounds and various equipment.
    I was never afraid of him. But all the crew thought him wierd at least and everyone thought of him as a braggart and a “big talker” – you know the type-one line of BS after another.
    I do recall Doug telling me that he and his girlfriend were into BDSM – especially the sadomasocistic part. I don’t recall whether this “girlfriend” of his was Carol Bundy or not. I also recall Doug showing me a handgun that he carried in his boot. I told him he was an idiot for carrying the gun at work. He said, “I need it for protection out here. We’re alone here most of the time.” I said, “What do think is going to happen? Is someone going to come here to to steal these giant pumps, boilers and generators?” He would brag about what an expert marksman he was, etc.
    Personally knowing Doug and having spent alot of time alone with hin during 1978-79, I have no doubt that he is guilty. I HAVE NOT done “extensive research” into his case. I just know him. If you knew him, you’d know he’s guilty too.
    I knew that he was wierd and had way over the top interest in sadomasocism – an obscession with it, not just a sexual kink! But I didn’t think that he was dangerous nor would I have imagined that he’d turn out to be such a mentally sick murderer and necrophiliac!
    I feel so terribly sorry for this literal monster’s victims and especially for Shannon who continues to suffer from this jerk over 20 years later!

  57. Shannon

    If it were personal do you really think I’d share with you Guy?
    It is obviously not something I want to say here, so don’t be any more obtuse than you already are

  58. Shannon

    Justin,
    I’ve said it before, I’d have to be an idiot to try to pass myself off as someone I am not here. Too many other victims of the same parasite post here for anyone to think they could get away with such garbage. Where would the advantage be in it anyway? Giving my name away is not really a big deal since it has already been tossed in the mud on countless websites, articles and books for over two decades now. To deny that my first name is Shannon would be a bit like closing the barn door after the cows have gone. I have never asked for praise or sympathy over this. I lived, I was lucky. I am a strong person and I think it is wonderful that others can feel empowered by what I have to say.
    So check your context on your comentary. The statement was made:
    “I think the 11 year old girl who was molested would disagree!”
    My response was the answer to the implied question of “Does the 11 year old from the case think he did it”
    I did and I still do. I am terribly sorry that the audacity of my postings distresses your delicate sensibilities, but truth be told…Tough cookies. If my mother is not offended that I post here, I can’t really bring myself to give a tinker’s damn about your delicate feelings on the matter.
    Jim,
    Don’t feel bad for me. As I said, all it is now is a bump in my road. I lived through something I wouldn’t wish on anyone, but the point is not that the situation was awful, just that it was survivable.

  59. ppd

    if douglas clark is innocent we might believe him if he stopped selling shit and basking in the glory of being a “famous” serial killer in order to receive profits off of selling stuff online. why would he do that and still profess innocence. I couldn’t do the same, could you? I see it as two faced.

  60. Sunni

    God Bless You Shannon! Your story and your wisdom
    can educate and council so many. Hold your head up girl and turn this tradigy into something positive! There are other little Shannon’s out there. Teach them to talk, teach them to tell and teach them to be wize to the real world.
    my thoughts and prayers are with you.

  61. Robert Campion

    Holy shit, after reading in depth evidence of this case, through christopher berry dees book on talking with serial killers, it is clear that Clark is an innocent man who was clearly and i mean FUCKING CLEARLY fitted up by the police and the justice system…WHAT A FUCKING DISGRACE!!!! I CANNOT believe this man is on a death sentence, please someone out there help this man get free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  62. Robert Campion

    “But I didn’t think that he was dangerous nor would I have imagined that he’d turn out to be such a mentally sick murderer and necrophiliac!”….EXACTLY…u didnt think this because u would have found it to hard to believe..if u think a guy is capable of that shit, TRUST ME U WOULD KNOW! Look as far as his sexual fantasies go, sure as hell guilty..BUT THATS AS FAR AS IT GOES…FUCKING HELL PEOPLE LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE THIS GUY HAS BEEN STITCHED UP..HE IS INNOCENT OF MURDERING!!

  63. chris

    I made a tv movie in 2000 based on this case called “Visions of Murder: The Story of Donielle.” TV being what it is, by the time the film got made, the story was moved to a fishing village and all of the names were changed. Melissa Gilbert played Donielle Patton, the waitress Clark went after. Donielle claims to be a psychic, who had flashes of the crime scene from jewlery given to her by Clark.
    Making a run of the mill Movie-of-the-week doesn’t make me an expert on the case (in fact it might disqualify me from expressing an opinion, come to think of it… anyway…)
    So the only opinion I will express is that from having made enough movies about whack-jobs, I suggest you all ignore “Guy Nelson”.
    All “Guy” does is try to get you to respond to “him”. Based on how he writes, I think he is most likely a ten year old boy sitting in his parents house, getting aroused by talking to adults. Seriously. Don’t give him (or her) anymore satisfaction. Let “him” move on the the Sponge Bob blog before mommy tucks him in.
    The rest of the conversation is interesting.

  64. Tez

    I believe Doug’s innocent- but what difference does mine or any of your opinions make for that matter? Bundy died & Clark will die too- his blood will be on all of our hands.- As for Shannon- please stop milking to ‘victim’ role…

  65. Sunni

    Shannon, personal thoughts and love during the holiday season, Im sorry for those who support the man you know as a real mad man. I personally believe in you and your story and wish you all the best in the new year. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

  66. Shannon

    Alright you people who were not there, Tez, Robert, Guy. If you have seen all this evidence… Put up, or Shut up. Show me, Show Chris, the people who were there, Show us that he is innocent. Where is this “evidence”? I could go onto the internet and find “evidence” that Jayne Mansfield was pregnant by the loch ness monster and that sasquatch killed her in a jealous rage. That “evidence” and wishfulthinking by the foolish would not make it true, nor would it negate the words or memories of those who knew her.
    Truth is what it is. Truth does not change because you need more drama in your life, or because you need to feel you have a cause to fight for. as for “milking the ‘victim’ role” , I have said it before and you obviously didn’t understand what I meant. I will be more clear this time. This was something that happened and shaped a part of who I am, not something I dwell on. This case was like a natural disaster, something to make one stronger and to be overcome.I live, I love, I am. Do you really think I am going to get upset because some crackpot calls me a liar? you can say the sun is green or that the sea is dry, but that won’t make it so.
    To all those who wish me well, Sunni,Justin, Jim, Pod… Thank you. Be well and be loved.

  67. Kim

    I just happened to recently read Christopher Berry-Dee’s book and stumbled across this website while looking for information on Carol Bundy. I just wanted to say that I was personally touched by Shannon’s posts. Shannon, I really admire your strength, courage, and attitude. As we’re all aware, Chris’s book paints a favorable picture of Doug as being innocent and I’m so glad to hear another side of this story. When I read this book, I was appalled at the events that had happened involving Shannon and I’m relieved to know that the real life Shannon is alive and has been able to move past this tragedy. Shannon, you are an amazing woman. Thank you for letting us hear the truth.

  68. charlie

    I am a criminology student and amongst a few others i find this particularly case fascinating, although i accept that all books, websites, newspapers etc are bias! (difficult not to be influenced at times) Shannon, i think all your comments have been fair and i can sympathise with you. As for Guy, im not entirely sure he fully understands the concept of a victim, and one might question when was the last time he was abused and simply “moved on” (Guy please dont feel compelled to answer this question). It is easy for me say that cases such as this fascinate me, but so often the victims and their families are forgotten. Shannon, it is obvious that you do not need or want to hear us say how we feel sorry for you. I think you must be an amazing woman and i commend you for getting on with things, and confronting all the ridiculous and insulting comments posted here by extremely irritating and sad people like guy nelson.

  69. pod

    Shannon someone is selling police records of their interview with you in 1980. I was concerned because its got your last name on it. I don’t want to say where it is posted as to protect your anonymity but if you want to know it you should email me, ok?

  70. Shannon

    I have written the idiot who is doing the auction, he is going by Samsleeps, go for it send him an email
    I am obviously just overreacting to him selling my childodhood. I wrote him and he responded by having me banned from the site.

  71. pod

    Oh Shannon I am so sorry! Can’t the state of California do anything? I called the wardens office and told them about the site. You should call the doj’s office because it is against our rights, I will study and fight until this is stopped, until the end of my days, so help me GOD! I’m sorry I cant write. I’m too afraid to write to you, would you know my identity? I can’t risk it.

  72. mj

    sorry I can’t write for fear if its not you and possibly locating me. I just wanted to alert you. I will do what I can from the sidelines just know there is someone looking out for you! I don’t think you’re overreacting because you have rights, those files should be sealed and protected, you have a right to privacy, you should sue the court or douglas clark, someone should be responsible. Call the LA County Courthouse. I will do that too. I called the warden and need to talk to the sgt. in charge of clark to make sure this stuff ends. all we can do is try! Is there a way to contact me? i am belladonut@hotmail.com

  73. Shannon

    I talked to the samsleeps fellow again. I explained to him how upset I was about his auction, he removed it and agrred that he would not post any more auctions using my name. Perhaps the promise that I would jump up and down trowong rocks at him helped. I believe in some cases, like this one that it is insensitivity more than malice goading the people into selling such things.
    When I had no voice to tell him NO! it was ok to sell them, now that I have screamed and let him know he was trying to open a painful scar and sell off part of my childhood trauma….Well
    Unfortunatly I don’t believe there is anything that can be done about sealing court records, Freedom of information and all that. But even with that I can still chase the auctioneers down and pop them in the back of the head until their eyes open.

  74. pod

    wow! you have got a lot of courage Shannon. I admire you so! It was really easy for me to throw rocks before I could grasp what actually happened (the day we found out, we threw rocks at the media cameras). But it was after we had to go to court that stopped my tongue. And we were the same age. Girl you rock! Do you know about the dvd>? God I wish we could stop them. Freedom of information act is about the EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF THE FEDERAL GOV”T agencies that have to tell us what their rules are, not the JUDICIAL BRANCH>it has nothing to do with scumbags reveiling and exploiting victims!! That falls under the new JUSTICE FOR ALL ACT. Besides this we were minors with other protections in place within the state of CA> Also the California code 2225 sets in place the rights for victims to collect from items sold which are made profitable from the notoriety of crime. God knows that sounds like an impossiblity at this point. but still the law is there.
    I hope I don’t sound like a know it all, Im just really pissed off! I don’t like it when people violate the rights of victims.
    The U.S. Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is a law ensuring public access to U.S. government records. FOIA carries a presumption of disclosure; the burden is on the government – not the public – to substantiate why information may not be released. Upon written request, agencies of the United States government are required to disclose those records, unless they can be lawfully withheld from disclosure under one of nine specific exemptions in the FOIA. This right of access is ultimately enforceable in federal court.

  75. pod

    That fellow samsleeps is full of bull, because that site did not take his stuff down! This site has proven its authenticity is about as truthful as Clark himself, and I smell a rat.

  76. pod

    I just got you note. Thanks for the write back! Please forgive me for not writing back I’m just crazy, I’m sure you can relate. It is a relief he’s a blip on the map, so to speak! I can rest easier perhaps and that’s so much more than I could ask for out of all this. It looks like you have done a lot more than me in making inquiries. It just pisses me off that I find sites with that garbage. I guess the best we can do is ignore them.

  77. Shannon

    The best we can do is to NOT ignore them,They fester
    I am contacting a lawyer as I type this. I am too pissed off to play nice anymore.

  78. pod

    Good. Bring those bastards down. I think better you than me…I’m such a chicken. Also I wanted to ask you why katsune? That means sly like a fox in Japanese! That scared me…I scare easily. I’m sure you could think the same about me.

  79. Shannon

    Kitsune are the messangers of the rice diety Inari, they are foxes, Every mythos about foxes has one thing in common….Foxes can and do survive. There is no continent I know of where you cannot find a species of fox and only one that has ever been thought of as extinct( Kit foxes were thought to be extinct for many year, then found not to be, just well hidden)
    That’s why kitsune.

  80. Gail

    Hi Shannon – I have just read “Talking with Serial Killers” by Christopher Berry-Dee. I don’t know if you are familiar with him or his work, but he convinced me through his book that Douglas Daniel Clarke was completely innocent and it was in fact Carol Bundy and John Murray who carried out all those murders. But reading some of your comments here on this website I was clearly wrong to believe this to be the case. Stay strong and take care from Gail in England.

  81. Jen

    Anyone here know where I may find accurate birth dates for people who have committed heinous acts, such as Douglas Clark? I’m sorry to ask, if anyone is offended, that is NOT at all my intention. I only want to have all of my facts straight.
    I’m going nuts with false information and cannot afford to buy a 100 books in hopes to get the information I am looking for. So, if you can help me out, please post here or email me at hurricanejupiter@yahoo.com or hurricanejupiter@hotmail.com.
    May each of you be blessed and loved!
    Thank you so much.
    Jen

  82. Shannon

    I am familliar with Mr Berry-Dee’s opinions. I had even thought of writing a bit for him before my common sense kicked in and I realzed that his opinions are firm and he is making money off them. Truth does not, as a rule with very few exceptions, change when money and pride are tossed into the mix.
    Take, just for example, this Samsleeps fellow. He gave his word not to sell those awful things, then he decided that the six dollars that he got from them was worth more than the pain he inflicted on others to do so. Mr. Berry-Dee is making a considerable bit more than Samsleeps, so why lett a little truth bother him?
    Sometimes the world makes me feel sad and tired. It’s a good thing that those who love and cherish me remind me that without a little darkness there is no light. Just because the darkness is there doesn’t mean I have to dwell there.

  83. pod

    No shit! These guys will never end, like you said before, shannon! We are a light in the darkness! and one small flame can light a whole room and take away the darkness! You cant sell that! Its a gift from God.

  84. Caelainn

    I felt the need to say something here. I know Shannon personally. She is not a woman who is prone to making up lies. What she says is what she means. I didn’t know about her past until she told me only 4 years ago, but having known her for several years prior to that revelation, I know I can believe her. Don’t get the idea that I might reveal anything personal about her, because I won’t…so don”t ask me. Just know that her friends are fiercely protective of her happiness.
    Shannon, I don’t tell you enough that you are one of my best friends, and that I admire your strength. And when it’s time to throw rocks at idiots, or beat stupid auctioneers over the head, you know I’ll be standing next to you, handing you more ammo or picking out the best bat for beating. Love ya, girl.

  85. pod

    I had a dream there were all these heavy things to lift that I just could no longer lift. I can no longer lift them and I have to drop them even if I hit my feet.

  86. TOM BLACKWOOD

    Shannon…I have always been fascinated by true crime…not necessarily in the perptrators, but in the victims…and their stories..You are a brave woman, whowas the victim of a controlling very intelligent man..a true sociopath…stay strong..also..to these idiots who believt mr. clark was “framed” by the police and judicial system..get a life and get some therapy! The evidence is totally overwhelming, and this man will forever attempt to bend the thinking of those who are easily influenced into believing that HE was the victim..always the case with these types of people…

  87. pod

    Shannon I hope you are all right, why didn’t you email me back? IT scared me…
    Still, I must repeat that I hate the fact that people read lies about my sisters that they were prostitutes and drug abusers, they were trashed just to save the sociopath’s ass. They were none of those things. I am waiting for Douglas Clark to die; then I can write a book about my sisters and someday people will know the real truth. One down, and one to go.

  88. Shannon

    I have been having fun fun with net outages lately. not the best month for my internet.
    As to writing a book about your sister’s lives, Why wait? What’s captain dumbass going to do? Cry in his cell? Throw a temper tantrum that will get him put in solitary confinement? I think that would be a bonus to the whole thing, don’t you?
    I am contemplating a book myself, but have not had the organizational skills to be so cohesive as to get a book done, besides that would mean thinking about the entire situation for an extended period of time… We both know I almost never do that. I may contact a publishing house about it… I am not sure if I will.

  89. pod

    Hi Shannon. Thanks for replying. I emailed back.
    About the book, I don’t want Clark to have the pleasure of seeing my sisters or my photos and getting any pleasure out of it, being the sick piece of shit he is. I don’t like those publishing house books, they’re too boring, and I am much too of a perfectionist and artist to let some generic cookie-cutting publisher to tell my stories. I think it would be better told directly from the sources. I would like help from my other family but these journalists like Farr, were way off the mark, in telling the story, and quite frankly, bad writers.

  90. Shannon

    I never had any problem with Louise actually…the only bit I found odd was that the same week she contacted me so did doug. I went a bit manic after that for a bit. It’s hard when the police tell you that things happened too far in the past for you to be protected from them, or that you need to just calm down and hush.
    Any story I put out there would have to have my approval and that of my family before it ever saw the light of day. I am quite scattered, but picky as hell.

  91. pod

    That’s what happened to me Shannon. i completely freaked like my world was suddenly intruded on and got hit like tsunami! Thats what happened. She was like, “I’d like to contact you so I can exploit you some for personal gain…whad’ya say”?

  92. Al

    Shannon, have you ever checked a PeopleFinder online to see if you are listed by address and phone number? People get on there whenever they subscribe to a magazine even!
    The best one is http://www.longlostpeople.com/
    If you type in your name and town you won’t be able to see if your exact address is in there without a password. But I’ll e-mail my password to your hotmail address if you are curious.
    Al
    P.S. You already have the last chapter of your book written, if you use your analyses and observations posted in this forum. The next step is to delineate every detail of your interaction with Doug and Carol up the the present. Lastly, write of your innocent personal (or not so innocent) life up to age 11.

  93. Suz

    This post is especially dedicated to my cousins Chris & Jeff, and to you as well, Shannon…
    I am the youngest daughter of one of Carol’s brothers. I was at a friends home when I saw Carol’s arrest taking place on the television in front of me. I had just smoked my first joint ever and thought I was hallucinating. I called my house to see what was going on and my parents were freaking out. I was summoned home immediately.
    Upon my arrival home my dad was going bananas. The phone # changed, we weren’t allowed to speak to anyone and I was never informed of anything. I was eleven, just like you Shannon.
    We were never to speak Carol’s name, ever. I know that my mother and father were asked to take care of Chris and Jeff and my parents refused. I never understood why we didn’t take them in. Somehow I have always felt responsible for their choices (my parents). I am quite ashamed of some of their choices, however I’ve always tried to make allowances for them by telling myself that they were only trying to do what was best. I know now that that kind of rationalization is just BS. I have always been ashamed of the fact that we didn’t welcome the boys into our family and take care of them. My parents were and still are selfish, but not me.
    I was 22 years when I first met Louise Farr. I was very pregnant at the time. She wanted me to verify some facts about my family for her book. I made a deal with her; She had to provide me with as much factual information about the events leading up to Carols’ arrest and in exchange I would verify what information I could, which wasn’t much. I have to say that after reading the articles I’d received from Louise I was literally speechless, paralyzed if you will. I was a good little daughter and never did any digging on my own but that’s not to say I didn’t care. I’m glad I found the courage to ask questions even if my answers were received too late to make a difference in any of your lives.
    Shannon; Your November 25, 2005 post says:
    “Carol was a very very damaged woman. She killed to make Doug happy because that was the only way she could find any self worth. She was Doug’s beard in many ways. She gave him the appearance of normalcy that he lacked. Once things came out I did not like her very much, but I did not loathe her as I do Doug. She tried to help herself, she tried to help me, and she did help her sons by removing them from any place Doug would be. She tried to help herself by seeking a psychiatrist. She tried to help me by turning Doug in two weeks before he had planned on killing me.
    “Carol was a victim of herself and of Doug, he was her crack and she was addicted. It killed her eventually and left a very hollow shallow thing in it’s wake. I don’t think she would have killed on her own. I think had she been left to her own devices she would have hooked up with one abusive asshole after another until one killed her”.
    I believe this to be the absolute truth. Carol was damaged. I have no doubt that she was severely abused by both her mother and father, sexually and physically. She was damaged and abandoned and at a very young age. She wasn’t ever particularly attractive and was always in one disaster after another, always struggling, constantly being used or taken advantage of, but somehow doing the best she could until she just couldn’t anymore. All she ever wanted was to be loved and accepted as she was but instead she was constantly abused and rejected. She suffered from low self esteem and had no support system. She was like a chameleon, becoming whatever whomever needed her to be in the hope of the ability to feel loved, wanted, accepted or valuable, even if just for a minute. The more you put her down the harder she would work to be better for whomever. She was totally abandoned, and by the time she gave up her kids there was no turning back. What more did she have to lose? Don’t misunderstand me here, I do hold her fully accountable for her actions, I’m just saying that she wasn’t born a monster. Something made her that way. It happens to the best of us.
    I’m glad that she’s dead. She was suffering as well and long before her incarceration. She never had a chance. None of you did. For this I am so sorry even though it isn’t my place to be.
    As for Doug, I hope he rots in hell and he will soon enough.
    From the time I was eleven until now I have felt guilt and shame for the choices that the adults in my life have made. I am fully aware that I was just a child and there isn’t anything I could have done to change things but I bear this burden just the same. I’m still not sure why I feel this way. I carry it everyday.
    I want you all to know that because of Chris and Jeff I became a foster parent. My husband and I have since taken in many children, more than 30 I’m sure. We’ve helped many families, and hopefully made a positive difference in the lives of these families. I know that it’s not enough. Nothing will ever be enough. There are no words. My heart aches everyday. My wish for every party negatively affected by this mess is this:
    Love honestly
    Care with your whole heart
    Accept every person for whom they are but always keep yourself and the ones you love safe
    Forgive Yourself, no matter what
    and most importantly
    Love Yourself and Dance Through Life…You only get one shot at it. make it count.
    I’m writing a book…My memoirs. It’s title is Hopelessly Helpless. Carol was hopelessly Helpless as well. Nobody could have saved her from herself.
    I’m sorry. For everything I am so sorry.
    S

  94. Shannon

    Thank you for pointing that site out to me Al , but I do not live even close to where they seem to think me. I never do, I am such a gypsy type that I am not always even in the country. by the time I am tracked by those things I am, as a rule, in another state or country.
    I always think though that life is very random and if someone were truly determined to find me they could. I keep myself safe where ever I am for just that reason.
    If I were to simply be afraid all the time life would be very bleak. So I remember and let go of the fears most of the time. If I become afraid or sad, I turn to those who love and cherish me and they remind me that I lived and I am happy. They also remind me that I am not responsible for what the adults around me chose to do or not to do.
    Suz,
    Let the people around you remind you of who you are now. You are not the powerless little girl who had no say in the decisions made around and over her head. You are the woman who has grown from her. If you feel powerless do something to feel empowered. If you feel like you have no hope find some one who has less and ask them why they still have hope. It will amaze you how much hope there is and can be in the world.
    There was a homeless man who really inspired me once. He lived behind a bus stop that I went to every day for work. He was kind and polite when he needed to be and vicious when he needed that too.
    I actually talked to him one day because I was bored and had just come from getting fast food. I had an extra hamburger in my bag because of some promotion thing. He asked me for money and I gave him the burger instead. then we chatted about nothing until the bus came and I left. I went the next night with extra burgers in the bag for him. I am not sure why. but we chatted again until the bus came and I went off to work. I did that for months. I asked him how he could live the way he did. he said it was just the way it was. That made me sad and I told him so. He asked why I was sad. he was not dead, he had some strange girl that brought him food nearly every day, and he had friends out there. It made me feel kind of foolish for feeling that I had it hard. He was homeless, jobless, filthy, and yet he was content with what little he had, even as little as it was.
    One day he was not at the stop anymore. I never saw him again. But he gave me a gift I don’t think he ever even realized. He reminded me that What I have is good, and better than it could be. and for that, I am better than I could be. If he could be happy and have hope, I have no reason to bitch now do I? I mean, I lived, I am loved, I have a job, friends and I am even pretty normal.*^_^*
    There is no reason for me to live in fear or hopelessness. Only reasons to strive to be better than you were yesterday. Happier, kinder, more fierce in defense of those you love.

  95. ShannonContinuum

    To Shannon: I love you greatly, and like Caelinn, I am feircely protective of you and your happiness. You know this. I just wanted to put it on here, so that any detractors would know it also.
    To pod: Shannon is who she says she is. I’ve known her personally for almost 10 years now. She is strong. She is the sort of woman you would never expect to have this sort of horror in her past. She is supportive and real, and I hope that you can build a lasting friendship with her. She can help make you strong.
    To all others: Shannon believed me when bad things happened to me. Her openness and honesty without remorse or shame helped me realize that my situation was not my fault. And I was not to blame. If any of you doubt her sincerety, look inside yourselves first. She is without shame. Some of you feel she should know better than to speak of such horrors, but for those of us who have lived through such horrors, her words and openness are like fresh air. She was not ashamed, and I learned to release my fear.
    Now I talk about my situation openly too. I hope that one day, I can pass on even a glimpse of the strength that Shannon has given to me.
    If you would like my story, you can contact me.
    andais at gmail dot com
    I’ll not give it here as this is a forum of a different nature.

  96. Suz

    First off, allow me to thank you for your kind words of encouragement. They did not fall upon deaf ears. I figure, it took 39 years to become who I am now and I have nothing but time (I hope) to improve on that. I am working diligently to eliminate the negatives from my life while striving to replace them with the many positives.
    I am also beginning to realize the therapeutic benefits of writing. It is providing me with clarity and hope. Additionally, I am lucky to have a wonderful, loving and supportive husband. He is a blessing.
    Please also allow me to apologize if my words seemed to have implied anyone other than Carol was Hopeless. That was not at all my intention.
    Good luck to you (however, it doesn’t seem as though you need it) and I wish you as well as all of the victims families only peace, pleasant memories,pleasant thoughts, joy and love.
    “s”

  97. pod

    Suz, Its quite relavent that you write about how Carol was, and vital to my understanding about the nature of my sisters’ deaths. For one, I have wanted to know exactly what went on during their fateful night. For my psyche to heal, I feel that I need to know when the horror comes up, somehow hold them in my thoughts to comfort their souls or something. I fear even the smallest amount of pain when it occurs, and I cringe at the thought of dying, in my nightly nightmares of their deaths. I don’t know what it felt like but I have had many headaches and heart aches. I also read the court cases, and the journals of what was said by their killers, judges attorneys, and whoever in order to piece together what happened, so somehow in my own mind be at peace, if that makes any sense. I am greatful for this site to read about the true accounts. The attorneys are not as knowledgeable and I always found it odd that a woman, such as Carol was the one responsible for the killings, as Clark claims. Its so important to know because he is on death row, his case comes up every year, so… we have to know! It’s odd too that I was 11 when this happened too. I’d rather believe that they got away and are living somewhere else and this was all just a hoax, even though I know its true. I wish it wasn’t!

  98. Suz

    I have only one clear memory of my Aunt. When she first moved into the Valerio Apartments, she contacted my dad requesting his help to move her and the boys in.
    My dad (who unfortunately is a bit of a lost cause himself) didn’t want to have anything to do with her even then, but he did it just the same and for that I am proud of him (and there is very little that I am proud of him for). I was with my Dad and together we helped her and the boys to move into this apartment. She was so happy on that day. She was so nice to me, loving, and protective. I remember the boys were so little. Skinny stick Chris and chubby little Jeff. It was a great day, brief but great.
    On this one day she was so very glad to have been given the opportunity to be a part of our family, even for such a brief time. She just wanted to make a connection, be wanted and welcomed. All that she wanted was to spend time with us. She was always looking for true love and acceptance. Carol was just a child in an adult body.
    It is my opinion that Carol must have felt cheated out of a happy, easy-going life. We, as human beings, naturally blame others first rather than taking responsibility for our own actions. I have done so myself often throughout my life even when I knew it was wrong. You?
    Carol was an easy target and would always have been had she continued to be free. I also believe that she would have continued to victimize had she been given the opportunity to.
    One would have to assume that Clark, being the egotistical maniac bastard that he is, would have to blame Carol for everything. That is what he has to do because “HE” needs people to like him as well as to feel sorry for him. My brother is exactly the same only he is a drug addicted thief who abuses females without the murder aspect of Clark. Clark needs to be seen as Carol’s unsuspecting victim, not to mention the attention it brings upon him to just “BE” a victim as well. I truly believe that in regard to these matters he “WAS NOT” and “IS NOT”.
    Any person who chooses to disagree is just enjoying the drama and stirring the pot, which I think is truly disgusting.
    Your sisters were young and trusting. I suppose they were just sowing their wild oats so to speak. All teenagers do. I have one, believe me I know this to be true.
    Do you have faith? I do. I believe in Heaven and I have to believe that death ends suffering. If I may, I suggest that you work to put and end to your fear and pain because I believe that your sisters wouldn’t want you to be suffering just as I believe my relatives dead or alive wouldn’t wish suffering upon me either. Try to have faith.
    Shannon told me to have hope and I will, I do.
    Kind thoughts,
    “S”

  99. Suz

    Thank you to whomever for allowing me to post to this site. It has been a healing experience to say the least.
    I really have nothing further to post publicly so I will make this my last public post.
    I’ve left an e-mail address in my second post and can always be contacted directly.
    I feel the need to respect everyones privacy and anything else I may have to add would not be best served in a public arena. To be honest I don’t really know anything else.
    Chins up.
    Regards,
    “S”

  100. Ashlee

    I’m not trying to sound harsh or negative, and am certainly not trying to place blame where it doesn’t belong, but I can’t for the life of me figure out how an 11 year old girl was allowed to “go with”, “get in the car with” or associate with a random apartment neighbor. Where were the parents or caregiver of this child? How did it come to be that she was in a position to just be “taken” by him on a frequent and daily basis?

  101. Shannon

    First of all you have to remember that this was still pretty much a crime of shame at the time. No one stepped foreword and said “yeah some son of a bitch hurt me that way” or “yes, I was molested”. These days more and more people realize blaming the victim is Stupid and just a cruel way of re victimising them. Then people still thought rape victims were some how in some small way to blame. Her dress was too short, she acted like she wanted it or led him on. All those lovely shields we don’t let people use anymore to tell themselves that it could never happen to them or their child or their friends. It does. Want to be disgusted, look up the statistics on it.
    Second they were not just random strangers. Doug and Carol were the people who lived across the way, the ones I baby sat for. The ones who offered to keep an eye on me when my very overworked single mother had to work nights or an extra long shift. The ones who gave me rides to the store when asked. They were the “nice normal people”
    I was also not “taken” on a daily basis or, for that matter on a frequent basis. You seem to be leaving out the fact that this occurred over a long term basis. You are also leaving out the fact that pedophiles are predators first and foremost. A foot long bright red mosquito would have so much less chance to get you than the tiny little brown ones that blend with everything and seem so innocuous. Those little bastards get you every time because you never see or suspect.

  102. Ashlee

    Well, that does make it a little more clear. I was born in 1978, so I guess I’ve never lived during a time frame when rape, incest or molestation victims weren’t victims. I can’t fathom anyone blaming any rape victim, much less an 11 year old child. An 18 year old is a child as far as I’m concerned. I have not read any of the books that have been mentioned in this forum. I only read a few chapters of one that was listed on a different site. I found this whole thing through http://www.doenetwork.org. There is an unidentified female on there who they say belong to these 2 killers. I had never even heard this story before, so I’m sorry, I just don’t know the story as well as others and that was what I was trying to find out. Also, with there being a woman involved and living there, that probably seemed like a more trusting situation. Little could anyone imagine……I do have to say that I have a big problem with anyone on here trying to make light of Carol Bundy’s role. I don’t know this story as well as others, but I don’t have to to realize that that is crap. There have been a few posting where people would make comments like “Well, she was involved but…..” or “she had terrible things happen to her in her life and was just looking for love”. I know many many people who have had horrible things happen to them, repeatedly. They didn’t do or take part in the kind of things that she did. She is just as guilty, and just as horrible. To be able to cut someone’s head off, you HAVE to have something absolutely horrible inside of you. As far as the molestation~rape issue goes, I think she’s almost more guilty than him because as a female, she should have had some sort of instinctive defensiveness for another female with that and she not only didn’t protect them, she helped him in any way she could. She was a disgusting, human being and I used the term “human being” lightly. For anyone to remotely try to defend her in any way at all is shameful. As far as her own family rejecting her, they did exactly the right thing. For themselves and their children.

  103. Shannon

    I do not in anyway excuse Carol’s role in this. What I said was she was DAMAGED. She did try to seek help. She did try to end it, and in the end she did. She turned herself in after more than one attempted suicide, attempts at therapy and a few other things that have been beaten to death. From what I have read of her early life, she took the path of victim and victimizer. She chose to do the things that had been done to her. I will never know why. Many children of abuse go on to abuse children in the same way they were abused or some variant of it.
    Some, like me, learn to scream long and loud because they are lucky enough to have someone show them how not to be a victim. I was amazingly lucky. I met someone who taught me how not to be a victim. I met someone who had been in a similar place and lived. I was lucky. now I see someone who hurts and I can teach them to scream. I can teach them that there is more to life than allowing some idiot to hurt you with words or deeds. By doing that I am paying for my life. I am paying back the person who did not laugh at the pitiful wreck I once was over this. I am paying back all the people who said ” I believe you!” instead of “Well, aren’t you the little liar?” I will distribute the blame on the shoulders I feel deserve it. I was there and I can point an honest finger. I do blame Carol. I blame Doug. I blame myself sometimes. If I had spoken up the first time he touched me, taken the first picture he had of what they did to and with my body… who would I have saved? How many someones could I have saved by saving myself?
    I will never know and I will always feel guilt over it. That is natural and I cannot stop it. It’s done and I cannot change it now. But I can, if I am very very lucky, get some other person to speak up a day sooner, so that predator has one less victim. If Doug’s parents had noticed his deviance. It seems very well documented.
    But in the end, blame does nothing.It doesn’t change a thing. Learning from it and preventing it can.

  104. ashlee

    I understand the concept of some types of abuse being a vicious cycle. Like physical abuse. Kids who get hit many times go on to hit their children. But, this type of behavior is way off on a different level. For me, it’ the sexual part of her role. I seriously can understand her killing that man more than I can understand her taking part in rapes or molestation. I just don’t understand how on earth she could have allowed, and even helped in that. Granted, I don’t know the details of this woman’s childhood or past. But, I can’t imagine what could have happened to her to make her numb to that. If I were to see a woman being raped, beat, or especially a child being molested or I knew of that, I would go balistic. I couldn’t NOT say something no matter how hard I tried. There is a part of me that is sympathetic to Carol Bundy when she was a child. Whatever happened to her must have been awful and it sounds like her life pretty much sucked from start to finish. I just think that everyone has it in them to help themselves. It seems like common sense to me that if you want to improve your life, you shouldn’t help someone molest a child or cut someone’s head off. I would like to think that if it were me and I had been you, I would be as understanding and forgiving, but, I don’t know…..

  105. Shannon

    Don’t confuse a smidgen of understanding for forgiveness. There is no forgiveness in me for what was done.
    But if you understand a thing, you can prevent it, end it, or simply make sure the people who can do so know enough to be able to.

  106. Suz

    My hat is off to you Shannon. Your post of August 3rd is brilliant. You shine. I only recently learned how to scream myself. It was a long time coming and people hate it but that is just too bad. I too will distribute the blame on the shoulders of the people I feel deserve it. I was there for the things that were done to me throughout my life and I can point an honest finger as well. Thank God I too can teach people that there is more to life than allowing some idiot to hurt you with words or deeds. You suggested that I do something EMPOWERING and I did. Now the garbage is gone. Ran away he did. Thank god! Thank you. You may just have saved my life with your honest words and your candidness. You are strong. Good for you. Good for me. Thank you, truly, thank you. You are very brave.
    “S”

  107. Edward

    i’m another person who is feircely protective of Shannon. i wish her security and happiness always. the callous ignorants who post pretentious and disrespectful blather about the innocence of those who abused her and the other victims should be ashamed of themselves. whatever half-baked sources you have (if any) mean nothing vs. the personal experiences of the victims and others who were there, and your disrespect for their pain is revolting.

  108. jennifer

    Woah! I have thought about this often. I was the Charge nurse on the floor where Carol worked as an LVN. My thoughts go out to her son’s and Shanon. I only knew her for a year. The memory of the day she came to work and confessed haunts me still. Nothing compared to the terror of family and Shanon. I did not realize how the whole situation affected me.

  109. Chuck

    I was living in the San Fernando Valley after moving from back east in 77. My friend and I used to hang out at the Little Nashville Club and Im quite sure we were there when Douglas Clark and Carol Bundy were there. It gives me the creeps especially after reading THE SUNSET MURDERS. I think I remember JACK MURRAY being there. Carol Bundy is gone now and I hope Douglas Clark is gone soon! My sympathies to all the victims and to Carols children.

  110. Shannon

    Chuck,
    I am sad and sorry to burst your bubble, but what happened to me DOES happen to other children, every single day and it’s up to adults who are kind, who can see past the blinders of polite society.
    That is where we learn to scream when children have not learned to or are too scared and scarred to do so themselves

  111. jennifer

    To reply to pod. Carol was very odd as a nurse.
    She worked on the side where very elderly patients came in to have wounds like decubitus ulcers repaired. She always made the elderly ladies up like Kewpie dolls-Lot’s of makeup, bright colors and red lips. The ladies liked the attention but it always seemed to go overboard!
    After she came to work and confessed to two other nurses the nurses aids talked about her asking for intimate hair samples from the African Amecican staff. No disrespect to her sons by mentioning this but it was true.

  112. Sue

    Every now and then Carol Bundys name flashes through my head, not for any particular reason, but I have an ill feeling when it does. As this has happened again, I googled her name and that is how I located this blog.
    Having worked the evening and night shifts my encounters with Carol were at change of shift. I had forgotten about how she had made up the female patients but can picture that so clearly now. I have to chuckle at the thought of walking into a room and seeing these ladies with their pig-tails, rosey red cheeks and bright red lips. What I remember of Carol is that she always seemed so shy and never spoke much. I remember the day she asked to be discharged from the hospital (as a patient) to go home to shower and change and coming back to the hospital to work. What a shock it was to come back to work myself that day and hear of her confession to the two nurses over their lunch break. Having been one of the nurses aids at the time I can verify the report of the request for hair samples from one of my co-workers. She shared with me other details of her encounters with Doug Clark and of how she wisely decided to distance herself from Carol on a social level due those encounters.
    I only met Doug Clark once and never wanted to meet him again. I shook his hand and looked into his eyes and cold chills ran up and down my spine. To this day, few things in life have ever scared me, but that encounter did.
    To those that have been affected by Carol and Doug, I say stay strong and move forward. To those that feel that Doug is innocent all that I can say is that I don’t understand and I’m sorry for you.

  113. pod

    I never was a nurse but had to have one once in a while, and was always leary of them because of her. if it wasnt for her my sister might still be alive. Is that irony? Well just be careflul of who’s car you get in.

  114. Sue

    Pod, I’m sorry that you have felt a mistrust of the nursing profession as a whole due to one persons actions. I have gone on to become an RN and am very proud of what being a nurse stands for and of how I touch peoples lives in a positive way every day. People with problems come from all walks of life and many can go without notice for a long time. How often have you heard “They were the best neighbors that you could have asked for” or “they were always so nice” or “they were so good to my children”.
    You are so right in your warning about being careful about the car that you get into. This is such a sad time to be living in when a persons first instinct, for the sake of survival, must be to distrust all people.
    Unfortunately nothing can bring back your sister, or any of the others that were killed, but keep them safe in your heart and let us all learn from this.

  115. Joanne Taylor

    Dear Shannnon,Pod and others directly involved with this case. I am a researcher for an Investigaton Discovery Network documentary on the Bundy and Clark Case. I am trying to locate everyone including victims and families, prosecutors and detectives to interview. Please contact me at jtaylor@m2-pictures.com

  116. Joanne Taylor

    To Pod: No,I am not affiliated with the UK New Detectives site. I work for M2-Pictures, a production company for the Investigation Discovery Network. Please contact me at 757-722-1400 X132 to talk about the Bundy-Clark case. We want to talk with people who were directly affected by this case. My email is jtaylor@m2-pictures.com

  117. karen

    Are you ppl crazy believing clark is innocent, carol is just a evil as clark is, coming from carols family i know the two are the same and deserve every thing they got and then some. Those two are too evil for hell and may they both rot there

  118. Janny

    Thank God for the victims speaking out! I get so furious when the victims are ignored.
    Yoko Ono was so upset when there was talk of letting David Mark Chapman out for family visits. She said she and her family would never feel safe.
    Of course at the same time she was actively working with a group that helped to free killers. I guess in some people’s minds you only suffer if you’re famous.
    God bless you all.

  119. Shannon

    Barbra, if you would care to forward any information you have to me I would be more than happy to look it over. You can mail them to the usual address listed here. I will actually check it over the next few weeks,
    I can just bet he talks about me and hates me more than death and I really could care less. I am as safe as I can be made without crawling into a cave and hiding from the world.
    I will not let the past limit my future.
    However he seems to know quite a bit about you so please keep yourself safe. I have always been more afraid of his puppets than I was of him getting out. there is no freedom in his future. he will rot and die where he is and that is just fine with me. I can only hope that his influence dies with him or before him.

  120. TheOtherShannon

    Hey, this is Shannon’s friend… Shannon, again. I was brought to this site by Shannon, and posted as ShannonContinuum previously.
    I just wanted to tell pod that I keep her in my prayers and have since I first read all of this last year. I know that I don’t know you, and I don’t want to frighten you in any way. I just hope that you know that there are people who care… even if they never speak directly to you.
    I don’t monitor this site except on the occasion that Shannon wants my opinion on something posted here, so I doubt I’ll read any response to this for a good long time. But I’ve kept you in my heart all this time, pod.
    I’ve kept you in my heart.
    -Shannon

  121. Ellen wiley

    So glad you survived Shannon! My daughter didn’t she was found in a field thrown out like garbage, nude..Clark had her clothes in his appartment so much for the sicko. GUILTY…. The pain is much better after all these years. I also have received threating letters from Clark an so did my other children since he was his own lawyer he got way to much info. Moved, changed name and left no forwarding.Good luck Shannon.

  122. Baeric

    It truly amazes me, that so many are fooled into thinking that serial killers are not what seem, or innocent, or something similar, and thereafter drive to berate the victims. What even amazes me more, are the people that come years later, with little or no knowledge, and try claim their innocence. I have done a little research, and found not much information, so for those claiming research… where is it? This research… the references please, and highlight the ones that point to the lies and show the innocence.
    To Tez, Robert, Guy… you demonstrate why there are wars, ill feeling amongst men, death, rape etc… You, in my eyes are just as guilty as Clark and Bundy. You will one day have to give an account of why you say such things of which you know nothing. Put your research where your mouth is… or is your mouth no longer located on face?
    In my eyes, Bundy was as guilty as Clark. Aiding and abetting. The fact she helped to convict him is wholly irrelevant to the crime she committed… however, unlike some, I claim this is my opinion only, it is NOT fact.
    I could possibly go into line and analyse it – but its old hat – I am not repeating and besides, as Shannon wrote, it re-opens the wounds for all concerned. Have you no idea of what you are doing when you do that? It does not allow people to heal at all.
    Let it go, let these people get on with their lives and stop peddling in the pain and suffering of others.
    Shannon, hon, hugs to you. You are in my thoughts, but I am sure you already know that.

    • bopey

      im not berating victims and im not ‘fooled’ into thinking the accused are innocent, it just appears after deductive reasoning through research there is more evidence supporting his innocence than proving his guilt. cases like ted bundy or arthur shawcross are obvious, this case causes controversy because it was so poorly and illegally conducted by the state prosecution that the question of who did it isnt obvious, especially as clark still professes his innocence. im not arguing the morality of it, im just interested in the cold hard facts, and i find reading the disputes interesting. Research of this case is hard to come by, i myself found the majority of info from chris berry dee’s book, which shed’s a lot of light on the facts. ofcourse to shannon i dont have anything to say because what can be said in words to try and make you feel any better, i’ve never been through anything like that so cant even begin to empathise but just know that regardless of who believes the man is innocent or guilty of murder, one clear fact is that he destroyed your innocence and created fears for you that wouldn’t otherwise have existed, i wont dispute the evil that clearly exists within him, but hope things for you will be brighter

  123. KJ

    Why do you people keep feeding this person. As a victim (no longer I might add) of sexual and emotional child abuse, this is not helping you. It is only feeding him (who you know is reading or seeing what’s here.) He’s probably written (or had someone write) most of the crap. Look to your friends, family, job, learning, helping others and get rid of anything to let him keep gaining more from you. Shut it (and him) down. He’s a narcisstic little boy who never got past his own ass. 🙂 Let him come for me… I’ll put him where my abuser is (in the urn.)

  124. Rob

    This message is for Shannon. Here’s a short story I’m not that proud of that has to do with people like you. It may be food for thought, though.
    The fact that you’re talking here on this website has “kept the victim’s voice alive”, so to speak. Sometimes I would feel sorry for excuses for human beings like Doug Clark because of where they are (Death Row), and forget they’re where they are because of terrible things they did. The reason is because I saw very little in the media about the trauma they perpetrated on their victims, in comparison to these monsters’ stories.
    I once read a detective in the Hillside Strangler case told the father of one of that serial killer’s victims not to talk to the media and generate publicity about his daughter’s death because it would add to his family’s tragedy. That might be true, but the fact his story is being kept out of the media might help to generate a lot of support for the Hillside Strangler(s). I mean, both those killers, once imprisoned, had a lot of people outside of prison who wanted to interact with them in a positive way.
    I could be wrong, but maybe this is something worth thinking about. Maybe it is good victims like you are going public.
    Please accept my sympathies for what happened to you.

  125. Terri

    Hello J or Pod,
    My name is Terri. Gina and I were friends at OV. Danny was my old boyfriend so when they started going out I got mad and said some mean things to her. We girls would wear each other’s clothes, Gina had a pair of my pants so the last time I saw her I yelled at her asking for my red pants back. Next thing you know Danny is calling me telling me she was murdered. I think about her all the time, I wish I could have said sorry. Danny and I just were in contact after 24 years and we were talking about her.
    Just so you all know Gina was not a call girl, a bad girl or anything else. She was a normal teen ager. We loved going to the beach and hanging with friends. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    How did your mom and dad handle things? As a 15-year-old kid I never thought about that, only know being 44, you think about the family. As a child all I could think about is my friend is gone and the last thing I said to her was hurtful.
    I am sorry for your loss and I hope your family was able to heal.
    Reading this makes me sad that so many people can say mean and hurtful things.
    What is up with people writing to these sick people in jail, I do not get it. Well, I guess the people that write are just as sick as the people who are in jail.

  126. mm

    Thats what I was about to say- cut him off. I have a wonderful, normal life now but admit I check on things every 5 years or so and ended up here a few times. He is a real puke with, what was published, a tiny whiney who could only get off doing the sick things he did and thinks of now I am sure. afraid of him? Oh please. Dont be.

  127. r

    DO NOT FRET FOR WHAT JUDGEMENT MAY NOT BE RIGHTFULLY ENFORCED BY MAN RATHER PRAISE GOD! FOR HE WILL HAVE THE ETERNAL JUDGEMENT ON THIS SICK EVIL MAN AND WOMAN, AND ALL THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES WILL BE VINDICATED. HIS JUDGEMENT WILL BE FAR MORE THAN ANY HERE ON EARTH. THEY WILL PAY FOR THEIR EVIL CRIMES FAR MORE THAN WE CAN EVEN IMAGINE. THE LORD OF ALL HAS NOT FORGOT THEM OR US. HE LOVES US MORE THAN WE CAN COMPREHEND! TAKE IN THE MEANING OF EASTER AND REJOICE. DO NOT LET THE MONSTER CONTINUE TO HAVE POWER OVER YOU BY GIVING HIM ANOTHER CARE. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE WILL NOT BE WATCHING.

  128. dj

    I Knew Exxie And Her Mother,brothers, and her sister.And I am sorry 4 all the victims.She was a good friend.I feel it is not right to put these pictures on the web so her family can see and cry over every day.I am so sorry shannon for what you had to go through.

  129. Kristina

    I have known Shannon for going on 7 years now. I can say this. I was molested for many years by my father, and I know the damage this can cause for a lifetime. I watched my own father murder men and then molest me as well as beat me. I did not know till recently that the “Sunset Murders” involved a woman I consider my sister. I personally think this man should rot in hell and find himself suffering for eternity the same pain he inflicted upon his victims. I would spend eternity in hell just to be the tormenter of him and my own father. Its a dirty job, but someone should punish men like this.
    Kristina

  130. Mark MacNamara

    I wrote a series of articles about this case and interviewed both Clark and Bundy, over many hours in her case, and over a period of years in his case. I’m not sure there’s anything more to say, but if someone is interested, particularly family members of victims, I might be able to help them find out more about this case.
    I myself know something about this kind of crime. A family member, my half sister, was murdered in 1969. The crime was never solved. I know first hand the effects of murder on a family.
    As for this case, I don’t think Doug Clark is guilty of the murders charged — based on the case presented at his trial. There may be other evidence that would convict him, but it was not presented at trial. He may well be guilty but that wasn’t established at his trial, which was as poorly managed as a trial can be. His attorney was a drunk and Clark became the fool who tried to represent himself.
    He was convicted almost solely on testimony from Bundy. What forensic evidence there was, was a wash.
    For sure Carol Bundy was deeply involved in most if not all the murders. When you read the trial transcripts of her interviews with police after she turned herself in for Jack’s murder, you realize the extent of it. At one point, she claims she only knows about the murders through Clark and in regard to a particular murder she only know what he told her. And he didn’t tell her much. A few minutes later she describes the murder in such detail, including the smell of blood, if memory serves, that you realize she must have been there….
    Moreover, she described to me one of the murders, allegedly committed by Clark but in which Bundy was also in the car. The description was chilling. One detail stands out above all. She claimed that Clark, sitting in the driver’s seat, shot a prostitute (given to him by Bundy for his birthday) in the head, while she was performing fellatio on him. He claimed he was in the back seat with the prostitute and Bundy shot the girl. For an extra sensualist like Clark to shoot someone in that situation just doesn’t ring true.
    Moreover, Bundy described to me being in the back seat with the dead girl and fondling her. As she told me this she was crying one moment and laughing the next. It was as vivid a portrait of a sociopathological personality as you can imagine.
    Another point. For those who know details of this crime you know that one of the victims was beheaded. Jack Murray was also beheaded, yet no forensic analysis was done to see if there was a similarity in those two crimes, in the way the knife had been used in each case.
    Moreover, there was a piece of bloody scalp found in the ceiling vent of Murray’s van. To my knowledge, it was never properly examined. No one ever tried to see if it might have been connected to one of the victims. Incidentally, it was Murray who owned a windowless van, not Clark.
    I was never able to decide whether Clark was guilty and if he was, of what. Certainly, the episode with Shannon alone is reason enough to put him away. But not to execute him. And that’s the rub. He had been with prostitutes for years. He was a satyr by any definition. And a coward. So why did he suddenly start killing prostitutes in the spring of 1980?
    Was it a folie a deux?
    There are many disturbing questions never answered in this case. One possibility is that Clark is right when he insists that the real killers were Bundy and Murray, which is why Bundy killed Murray. Because he was becoming unreliable as a partner. Bundy told me that she was afraid Murray would go to the police and tell them about the murders and then Clark would come after her. This is the kind of logic that pervaded this case.
    Bundy was always terrified of Clark, she claimed, yet she went on living with him. And having sex with him. He claims after their initial time together he was never attracted to her sexually. True? Who know.
    When Bundy went to police herself the person she described as her accomplice was much closer to Murray than Clark. The transcript of that conversation is a real revelation.
    I would only add that if you look into the life of Carol Bundy you see that everything in her background leads up to the life she lived in the San Fernando Valley in 1980. But what about Clark?
    I wrote an article about the case based on my interviews with her that appeared in Los Angeles Magazine in about 1991.

    • dhs

      I just finished the louise farr book And she does go over the comparison of the two decapitations: “(The prosecution) were satisfied that they were performed by different people. The points of decapitation, the types of knives, and the cuts themselves varied.” Anyways,here’s hoping for enlightenment, and a more emotionally nurturing society will phase out this sick behavior.

  131. kristin davis

    my tribute is to remain in the middle and not get fired up. the so called man that doug is,is a waste of time. if you make a big deal about him then he wins.if he makes you mad or uncomfortable then he wins. he has gotten to you.I’ve let some horroble men hurt me.I didnt call the police or anything. they dont deserve any attention towards thier crimes, they were nothing to me. when i say they did horribble things. rape/beatings etc. they were nothing to me. i wouldnt give them the power. doug clark has power, you give it to him by being a victim.I am sorry for what he did do,I cant undo it. only you can go forward and be a better person than he is. then you’ve won.

  132. Jess

    Hi
    To be honest i really really do NOT beleive Shannon is this actual Shannon (And yes i am saying ou are a protendeder) in honesty i dont know why your doing it its just a silly perverted thing people do but its really wrong!!!
    i highley doubt the real shannon would A – bother with such a blog B – argue in the mannar in which you have and C- most importantly give out such contact info like email address on such a location!!!
    So once were past all the protenders i am this vicitm or related to so and so can we please remember these are real people who had to deal with real things.

    As regards to his huilt or inoccent well i cant say i wasnt there and i have not seen all the infomation as its not all public.
    However i strongly beleive he did not get a fair trial and that there was enough evidence that meant they should have at least investigated others.
    There was clear evidence that he was a pedophile and if the cops had collected there evidence by the book i am sure he would have been convicted of this crime so he is not a good man. He also admited to knowing about and covering at least 2 murders so again not good and would have been put in jail. So i suppose my only issue is a man is on deathrow whos trial was sketchy and a Carol Bundy who admitted to be everything Doug was accused of being (enjoyed killing / necro etc) was given a lesser sentence.
    Both these people should have been put in jail no question they admited to enough crimes to ensure that

  133. Actual Shannon

    @ Mark MacNamura I think you are a bastard. You helped ruin my birthdays for years by sending me that stupid birthday card and letter full of venom from doug. Even if he was not a murderer, where the hell was your brain when you sent his VICTIM letters and cards from him you moron? You are everything a human being should aspire NOT to be. I hope you got a good story out of hurting me that way.
    @Ms.Davies Doug has no power over me. He is and will remain a creature in a box begging for attention. I survived him and what he did to me. Not everyone can say the same.
    @Jess. I could not give two figs if you believe I am who I say I am. But, I am in a pretty amused mood so I will indulge myself in a little Q&A just for your tiny lil mind.
    A)I bother with this blog because things get said about me on here. That sometimes annoys me. If I were standing in front of said person I would correct them in the same way I do here. Ignorance is not knowing, Stupidity is knowing and still not believing. Which one are you again?
    B)Since you don’t know me you do not know what I would or would not argue about.
    By the way I do hope that English is not your primary language. If English is your primary language, learn to use spellcheck it will make you look less like a trolling fool.

  134. R

    Im cindy and ginas oldest sister. How did my family survive it? As a family ww did not. God only knows how we are still here. Some of us,anyway. You cannot even imagine the horror and 25 years of nightmares. Everyone else just went on with their lives. Can you blame them?

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